Late 50s and Pre-New Look 60s Batman and Robin -- Is it that bad?

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Author	Topic: Late 50s and Pre-New Look 60s Batman and Robin -- Is it that bad?
Wayne1776 Member	posted April 07, 2003 10:49 PM A lot of people talk of this period of Batman as if it were totally dreck. Is it really? I have only read a handful of the stories from this period in the Annuals, and such, but I would like to read it all. Yes, some of the stories I have read were goofy, and strained my ability to willingly suspend my disbelief, but I want them in Archive format. I want to selfishly read them all. I know the Superman stories of the Weisinger years is a highly desired Archives (by me too!). I know that the Batman family of stories don't really compare to those stories, but I still want to read the complete Jack Schiff* Batman & Detective Comics, as much as the complete Mort Wiesinger Superman family of stories. I want to read about Batman's and Robin's adventures in hypnotically induced time travel, with space aliens, and Batman II and Robin II, and - God help me - Batmite! Believe me, I am one of the Archive buyers who would be first in line to buy either of them - the Weisinger Supermans or Schiff Batmans - and I hope I have that opportunity in my life-time. What do y'all think? The earliest Detective Comics* I own is # 189 Nov. 1952 and Whitney Ellsworth was the Editor. The earliest 60s Batman & Detective Comics I own are # 144 Dec. 1961, and # 285 Nov. 1960, respectively. Jack Schiff was Editor with Murray Boltinoff and George Kashdan as Associate Editors. When did Schiff become Editor? IP: Logged
NecessaryImpurity Member	posted April 07, 2003 10:56 PM I'd buy 'em. But it just ain't my Batman. This stuff is closer to Earth-C (the funny animal earth) than Earth-1 or Earth-2. In fact, I like that idea. In my person chronology, these stories no longer take place on either Earth-1 or Earth-2, but rather, a new Earth heretofore unidentified. IP: Logged
daytripper Member	posted April 07, 2003 10:57 PM The late fifties Batman was a bit silly, and repetitive, but not as bad as it was made out to be. It's just that what came later, from DC and Marvel, was exciting enough to make us all look down upon those Batman stories. The artists on Batman in those days, guys like Sprang, Robinson, Moldoff, etc, were solid artists, but the stories were at times less than exciting. DC's habit of treating its stories like puzzles to be solved eventually led to Marvel's success a few years later. ------------------ Allen Smith IP: Logged
NecessaryImpurity Member	posted April 07, 2003 10:58 PM That's "personal chronology". I hope the new boards have at least a preview feature, if not an edit feature. IP: Logged
Old Dude Member	posted April 07, 2003 11:25 PM I pointed out on an earlier thread, which unfortunately I can't find, that during the Batman's "silly" period, usually only the cover feature was about a weird Batman transformation or Batman battling aliens. Very often, the other stories were very solid detective tales, or quite old fashioned Batman adventures. It would be a shame not to have them reprinted just because there were so many others that were indeed silly. I recently reread some of my old Batman annuals, a couple of which were collections of alen encounters and transformations. Sure, it's not the Batman that anyone likes (did anyone EVER look forward to the next Zebra-Batman story? Even as a kid, I never did!), but these atories have a charm all their own IMO. IP: Logged
Carlo Member	posted April 08, 2003 01:33 AM As Old Dude and daytripper imply, "silly" is a good word to describe that era... mindless, wholesome storytelling, nonsensical at times, but yep, just plain fun and silly to boot! Keep in mind, being post-Wertham, I'd guess DC (and others) were taking the safe and narrow road, adhering to those self-imposed regulations But, no, I'd not use the word "bad". I think of it as a different time, a different era, different purpose to storytelling back then... best... Carlo IP: Logged
Koppy McFad Member	posted April 08, 2003 03:43 AM The "silly" stories with aliens and bizarre transformations stand on their own. They were intended for readers who were watching schlocky sci-fi movies with weird monsters and goofy psuedo-science. But like Old Dude said, there were also straight detective and crime stories in the back of those same silly stories. In the late-60s and early-70s, when DC was reprinting old Batman material, they often resorted to printing stories from that era. IP: Logged
PeterCool Member	posted April 08, 2003 06:04 AM I actually kinda like the "silly" era. Sure it's weird, but the stories could also be imaginative. Also, they were fun, which is something Bats hasn't been in a long time (although lately it does seem some fun is creeping back). It may not be the preferred version for most people, but I don't think it was necessarily "bad". IP: Logged
DaBubba Member	posted April 08, 2003 07:28 AM I can't wait for 50's Batman to be collected. I'd be thrilled if DC started another line combining Batman/Detective, starting with maybe the introduction of Ace, the Bat-Hound and running to the start of Dynamic Duo. I only have a handful of Batman/'Tec from the 50's, but I love 'em. Bring on the Batman Family! IP: Logged
Melkor Member	posted April 08, 2003 08:26 AM I don't want the late 50's/early 60's stuff reprinted because I think there's still too much great earlier stuff that hasn't been reprinted to waste an archive slot on Batman versus aliens, Bat Mite, and all the rest of that that goofiness. Although the Batman archives reprinting Detective Comics are approaching the 1950's in the next volume or two, the Dark Knight archives reprinting the Batman comics have a long way to go, and I would much rather read those Batman stories before any of the 1950's stuff. I think that once the Detective reprints hit 1950, we should get ONLY Dark Knight volumes until the Batman comics catch up to 1950. And, personally, 1950 is where I jump off the Batman train--by that point, Bats was already deputized, sanitized, and far less interesting, and that was seven years BEFORE the comics code. The post-code stuff, I would never pay to read. --Mark IP: Logged
Jason Rhoden New Member	posted April 08, 2003 10:56 AM I would absolutely love the archives to get that far. Hopefully they will. I can see the continuity argument for keeping Dark Knight/Batman/Batman in WF at the same rough time period, but I would much rather the Dark Knights stay in the mid 1940s (though a couple more volumes sooner rather than later would be nice), the Detectives move into the late 1940s, and the Worlds Finest move into the early 1950s. That way, with the DD line and the Neal Adams collections, there will be a wide variety of Batman in hardcover. Jason IP: Logged
India Ink Member	posted April 08, 2003 04:07 PM I guess MY Batman is almost everything published between 1966 and 1974. When I think about it, that's the stuff that resides at my inner core and I have an automatic response of recognition to it. But I mean everything that was published and that I read back then. Including all the Giants and Super-Specs, including Batman from the 30s to the 70s. And so MY Batman includes all those outra stories. And some of these stories are really great. I can feel Batman's emotional pain when Batwoman gets too close, when he's in peril of losing himself to her sexual siren call. The sense that to kiss her would be to die, to disown all that he is and subsume himself into the life of some other person--that opposite sex. No never! Get back Batwoman! And poor Robin--chaste, sexless--what does Betty Kane want from him? These girls turn your life upside down. The hell that Batman and Robin went through whenever they were around Batwoman and Bat-Girl is the perfect metaphor for every boy's trauma in puberty. Silly? hardly. IP: Logged
NecessaryImpurity Member	posted April 08, 2003 05:34 PM Yeah, but Bat-Mite?!?! I can't see Adams or Novick or Aparo or Infantino doing a Bat-Mite story, can you? Would O'Neil or Goodwin or Englehardt or Robbins write a Bat-Mite story? The mind boggles at thought, no? I can see the straight detective stories, the straight adventure stories, most of the Batwoman and Bat-Girl and even Bathound stories as part of the expected Bativerse. But once you get to those stories with Bat-Mite, aliens, time-travel, and the rest... Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those stories when I read them as a kid in the Super Specs. However, the main character isn't Batman, but rather another person of the same name. Hence my desire to place these stories on yet another Earth. The Earth-W (for weird) stories are enjoyable of themselves, but incompatible with what came before or comes later. IP: Logged
whoswhoz Member	posted April 08, 2003 11:28 PM quote: Originally posted by Wayne1776: The earliest [b]Detective Comics I own is # 189 Nov. 1952 and Whitney Ellsworth was the Editor. The earliest 60s Batman & Detective Comics* I own are # 144 Dec. 1961, and # 285 Nov. 1960, respectively. Jack Schiff was Editor with Murray Boltinoff and George Kashdan as Associate Editors. When did Schiff become Editor?[/B] Jack Schiff became Editor of Batman in 1942. Whitney Ellsworth is listed as editor on all DC titles until 1959. But he was really Editiorial Director. Boltinoff and Kashdan worked for Jack Schiff. Boltinoff was the art director. Kashdan story-edited all the back up features, like Aquaman and Green Arrow. Schiff handled Batman himself. IP: Logged
whoswhoz Member	posted April 08, 2003 11:35 PM quote: Originally posted by NecessaryImpurity: Yeah, but Bat-Mite?!?! I can't see Adams or Novick or Aparo or Infantino doing a Bat-Mite story, can you? Would O'Neil or Goodwin or Englehardt or Robbins write a Bat-Mite story? The mind boggles at thought, no? I can see the straight detective stories, the straight adventure stories, most of the Batwoman and Bat-Girl and even Bathound stories as part of the expected Bativerse. But once you get to those stories with Bat-Mite, aliens, time-travel, and the rest... Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those stories when I read them as a kid in the Super Specs. However, the main character isn't Batman, but rather another person of the same name. Hence my desire to place these stories on yet another Earth. The Earth-W (for weird) stories are enjoyable of themselves, but incompatible with what came before or comes later. Kevin Nowlan did a Bat-Mite story in Legends of the Dark Knight. It's all in how you present it. Batman is a very versatile character. He can fight aliens, regular crooks, psycopaths and help old ladies across the street. In the old days comics had something for everyone and reached a wide audience. Now characters have been "purified" and the audience reduced to a handful of "scholars of the medium". I would have started the Silver Age Batman reprints with the first Batwoman story from 1956, myself. But it's too late now. Nothing to stop DC from putting out another Batman in the 50's trade paperback though. IP: Logged
srca1941 Member	posted April 08, 2003 11:40 PM Here's a map of what an archive of that era might look like. I can't remember offhand why I choose the starting point that I did, but I think it was an origin story: Volume 1 (217 Pages): Batman 74-77; Detective Comics 190-196 Volume 2 (228 Pages): Batman 78-81; Detective Comics 197-204 Volume 3 (233 Pages): Batman 82-86; Detective Comics 205-211 Volume 4 (222 Pages): Batman 87-91; Detective Comics 212-218 Volume 5 (231 Pages): Batman 92-96; Detective Comics 219-226 Volume 6 (229 Pages): Batman 97-101; Detective Comics 227-234 Volume 7 (231 Pages): Batman 102-107; Detective Comics 235-241 Volume 8 (229 Pages): Batman 108-112; Detective Comics 242-249 Volume 9 (229 Pages): Batman 113-117; Detective Comics 250-257 Volume 10 (219 Pages): Batman 118-122; Detective Comics 259-264 Volume 11 (219 Pages): Batman 123-127; Detective Comics 265-271 Volume 12 (236 Pages): Batman 128-132; Detective Comics 272-279 Volume 13 (216 Pages): Batman 133-136; Detective Comics 280-287 Volume 14 (214 Pages): Batman 137-141; Detective Comics 288-294 Volume 15 (226 Pages): Batman 142-146; Detective Comics 295-300 Volume 16 (217 Pages): Batman 147-150; Detctive Comics 301-308 Volume 17 (215 Pages): Batman 151-155; Detective Comics 309-314 Volume 18 (191 Pages): Batman 156-159; Detective Comics 315-320 Volume 19 (203 Pages): Batman 160-163; Detective Comics 321-327 -Steve ------------------ Visit "The Golden Years" http://www.goldenyears.cjb.net My "Future Archives" Page: http://www.dcarchives.cjb.net IP: Logged
India Ink Member	posted April 09, 2003 12:24 AM Actually I would have this archive series begin at where srca1941's map has volume 3. The reason being this would have all the preceding archives (Batman, Dark Knight, and Batman in World's Finest) eventually ending their respective runs around the same point in time (early 1954). For simplicity's sake I think the best title for this series would be "The Batman & Robin Archives." IP: Logged
Joe Pacheco Member	posted April 09, 2003 01:29 AM Give me Sprang/Paris, Bat-mite, Ace and Batwoman anyday. IP: Logged
kdu Member	posted April 09, 2003 02:27 AM I try to get at least one weird Batman book at every convention I go to. They are different, but none are crap (well, "The Flying Batman" from Batman 58 was). Some are even rather surprising; the Detective with the mechanical Moby Dick on the cover (314) was a murder mystery (well, not really that supprising, when I just looked that up, I saw the cover copy read 'Murder in Movieland ). And I think the Batman and Dark Knight should continue with their numbering as long as there are issues to reprint (I don't like that DC did a Dynamic Duo release, and I hope thy don't skip ahead with Superman like that). IP: Logged
NecessaryImpurity Member	posted April 09, 2003 02:39 AM quote: Originally posted by kdu: And I think the Batman and Dark Knight should continue with their numbering as long as there are issues to reprint (I don't like that DC did a Dynamic Duo release, and I hope thy don't skip ahead with Superman like that). You are in the smallest of minorities. I think the vast majority of us are hoping for a Silver Age Superman Archive next year, starting in 1958. IP: Logged
Lee Semmens Member	posted April 09, 2003 07:35 AM I regard this period of Batman as definitely his nadir. And from what I have read it apparently nearly destroyed Batman as a comic strip character, so much so, the powers-that-be at DC replaced editor Jack Schiff with Julius Schwartz in an(successful) attempt to revive interest, and sales, for the character. Having said that, I would buy archives of this Batman era, but hopefully they will only be done after all the Golden and earlier Silver Age stories have been archived. IP: Logged
James Friel Member	posted April 09, 2003 12:13 PM A lot of it was really quite bad. At the time, I enjoyed the odd story (usually the ones drawn by Sprang or someone else--never Moldoff's, which had become so watered down that they seemed almost like diagrams toward the end). But Batman titles always went to the very bottom of my reading pile when I came home with a bunch of new comics. IP: Logged
DaBubba Member	posted April 09, 2003 12:31 PM It's funny that some of you guys migrated from DC to Marvel due in part to the silly-era Batman (and others). I love 50's to pre-New Look Batman, but I think the early Marvels from the same period (early 60's) are practically unreadable. New Look Batman is probably my least favorite era for the character, despite a few highlights. I like the strip a lot better after Adams hops aboard and Robin goes to college. IP: Logged
detective29162 Member	posted April 09, 2003 01:07 PM I am with you Bubba. The new look Batman issues (with a few exceptions) are in my opinion, not all that great. I like the old Moldoff, Sprang, Mortimer issues with the aliens and huge props. Yeah, the stories are a bit simple but consider the audience. The best overall issues (art, stories,) are the Adams/Giordano, O'Neil issues. IMHO only the Rogers/Englehart issues come close. IP: Logged
James Friel Member	posted April 09, 2003 01:13 PM New Look Batman was a disappointment to me. I enjoyed the Infantino stories but felt he was misplaced on the character--Kubert would have suited me more, or Toth, Meskin or Ditko. And I have never stopped resenting that he was pulled off Adam Strange to do batman--a good career kove for him of course, but it killed my favorite character of the period. My migration to Marvel was more sealed by the go-go checks/camp period at DC. IP: Logged

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